Comments on: Do the Greek Orthodox Worship Mary?

By: howard

howard — Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:31:32 +0000

This conversation is going no where. It’s lacking the place of a
good leader to head the things to come out on conclusion.
Healthy Living

By: Marisa

Marisa — Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:00:45 +0000

Mariolatry is probably the most serious poison of the Roman system and it is a very important question about where Mary worship came from. Basically, it came out of the Counsel of Ephesus in 431 AD. It didn’t come out of scripture because it isn’t in scripture.

You see, the Catholic church teaches that there are two sources of truth, two sources of divine revelation. One is the holy scripture; two is the holy Catholic church. So, if the church says something is revelatory, it is. If the pope speaks ex cathedra, that’s like the voice of God and has equal weight with scripture. If a church counsel says this is revelation, it is. So, you’ll read a Catholic theology like Ott’s Theology, which I was reading this week, and you’ll read in there and it will say, “Such and such and such is true” and instead of giving you a scripture reference, it will just say “The Counsel of Ephesus, 431.” Or it will say, “Such and such and such and such,” and then it will give you “Pope Pius XII” because that’s equal revelation. Therein lies the conflict.

Whomever made this comment is particularly stupid, as, from the mouth of the Angel Gabriel, who is after all, a messenger of GOD!!!!, it was said, ‘Rejoice highly favoured one, the lord is with you; blessed are you amongst women (Luke 1.28) now, if she is blessed by god who the heck are you to deny that. Also, she was held in such high esteem by Jesus that he wished his Apostle Thomas take good care of her. Now, NOBODY ever said worship! Veneration is respect for someone esteemed by God himself! as the apostle and said are venerated. Your earthly feelings of sexism are on full show…why should respect for or venerate a women, right? I mean, we have respect for apostles, and even some recent leaders of the church are venerated so stop getting hung up on councils and get off your high horse and venerate the one whom GOD , not tradition, called ‘full of Grace’ you stupid man. It wont distract you from Jesus, I promise!

By: Tony

Tony — Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:57:30 +0000

Comment # 7 and #9 your not getting the whole picture. As a former Evangelical I researched and discovered many flaws in Evangelicalism. The Orthodox Church is Christ’s body, that is why we worship here, get baptized here, fed his body (receive communion) here, have confession and fellowship here. In the church we are restored to communion (not relationship) with God and communion with others. You cannot be an individualistic Christian (just you and the bible). With only a few exceptions most of the New Testament was written to the Churches and not to individuals. The Bible was written by the Church and for the Church, you cannot come up with your own interpretations that differ from the early Fathers of the Church who in some instances were taught by the apostles themselves. Also if you are not a member of any church and just believe that all you need is the Bible and not Church (I knew a lot of those people), then you are not reading the Bible the way it was intended. The Bible is from the Church and for the Church as a member of Christ’s body which is the Orthodox Church. A lot of Evangelical practices today are a very modern idea, even if Martin Luther were alive today he would not recognize many of these practices done today. For example; Not baptizing infants, The Virgin Mary not being ever Virgin, Not accepting that the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ, Luther believed in all these things. If St. Paul were to be transported from his century to this century and visit an Evangelical Church he would not recognize most of these Church practices that are done today in the Evangelical Church. In the same scenario if he were to be transported to an Orthodox church he would have not recognized the fashion, but as for the Church, it would be similar to his times. Now in saying these things I must state that I know most Evangelicals are sincere about worshiping Christ, they truly are. All I am saying is that you can be sincere in your spirituality but wrong in your Theology. That is why modern day Evangelicalism is mostly American. Most of these Evangelical practices that are done were not even heard of in the first century church. If you were to conduct Church in the ways I have mentioned with alter calls and a Church service that mostly consists of a Pastor reading and interpreting Bible verses it would have been totally foreign to the early Church. Evangelicals whole stance is built on anti-Catholicism and anything that reminds them of that they attribute to Catholic innovation. One of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation was that Martin Luther watched the Pope accumulating personal wealth by selling indulgences for the forgiveness of the sins of the deceased. That is when he displayed his disagreement with the Pope and wrote his 95 theses on the church door. I think we have to acknowledge that the reformers were attempting to get back to the golden age of Christianity. There was an intention, a motivation on their parts, that was good and appropriate, because what they were seeing didn’t square with the gospel. And in fact, I think we would even argue that in many ways, it didn’t square with apostolic tradition. There were many things that had been added, through the Middle Ages, to the faith once for all delivered for the saints, that even as Orthodox Christians, we could not embrace today (Mary’s Immaculent Conception, Purgatory, The Pope, etc). But by returning to the Bible, they sought to divest Christianity of all the accretions, the additions, and return it to the pristine state of the early church. Now I want to say again that I know firsthand many Evangelicals want to glorify God above all else, as true Christians that is what were supposed to do, but how the Bible was formed and the intimate relationship between the Church and its Scriptures is vital. The truth is indeed in the written Word of God, but why does a modern church’s interpretation outweigh the wisdom of the Fathers, Councils and Creeds? That is an idolatrous confidence in someone’s own ability to understand the Bible. Our individual interpretations of the Bible are valuable, however when our individual interpretations conflict with the collective voice of the saints down through the ages (some were taught by the disciples themselves) then our individual interpretations are most likely wrong. This is precisely what the heretic Arius was doing in the early century of the church, when he denied the full divinity of the Son of God, he read the Bible in such a way as to deny the full divinity of Christ “It’s in the Bible, so forget about tradition!” That is where a lot of Evangelical Churches end up, whether they acknowledge it or not. They end up elevating their own mind over the mind of the church. In the end, the voice of the many (the Church) is to be preferred over the voice of one, regardless how sincere that one voice may be. I had heard many times when I was an Evangelical that the Bible is the pillar of truth. But the Bible does not say that, it says; “I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). Evangelicals say you must be “Born Again”, yes this is true but listen to what the Lord says to Nicodemus in the Scriptures “ You must be born again” (John 3:17). Meaning the spiritual rebirth from divine grace. But by what means would it come and operate? Did he say perhaps, believe, open your mouth, and Divine Grace will come unto you and give you rebirth. Of course not, what our Lord said is “Unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot see the Kingdom of God” (John 3:5). What else is this birth (born of water) other than Holy Baptism. This rebirth (and the spirit) enables our nature to receive and contain Divine Grace. By Divine Grace the faithful were saved and are being saved. It is not a one time deal, it is a constant Grace, “His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and Godliness” (2 Peter 1:3). This is why in many places in the epistles, Divine Grace remains and grows in each believer.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:48:45 +0000

I agree with Comment #9. Thank you Mr. Van Halteren for your humble yet powerful answer.
To the one who states “Mary is venerated, not worshipped as a goddess. Venerate: To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference. Worship: The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. Ardent devotion; adoration. Two different things.” Don’t kid yourself. If you pray to her, you are according her the power to hear and grant prayer requests, how is this not assuming the role of a deity?
As far as her being sinless goes, Romans 3:23 states “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;” It does not state an exception for Mary. God doesn’t make mistakes when he authors something through man, but that man has to first be submitted to God in Christ Jesus in order to be correct. Here’s a measuring tool with which you can use to test the truth of a belief: If it lifts up anything other than Jesus, it is not from God. (See 1 John 1-6) Furthermore, Mary herself confessed she needed a savior in her magnificat (Luke 1:47), “My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.” There are many lessons in the New Testament warning against the praise of Mary. In Luke 11:27-28 Jesus Himself corrected a woman who fell into this thinking when she shouted to Him “Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But Jesus said, “Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the Word of God and keep it.’”
My parents left the Catholic church for this very reason: They started to see for themselves that ONLY God’s Word is the truth and that “the church” much of the time contradicts God’s holy scriptures, this Maryology being a perfect exapmle. For “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.” Truly did Paul speak only verses later in 2 Timothy 4:3 when he said, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts they shall heap to themselves teachers, having itchy ears; And they shall turn away from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” Isn’t this exactly what we’re talking about- fables vs. God’s Word? Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about how they regarded their traditions to be higher than God’s calling, saying, “Thus you have made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition” (see Mat 15:6 and Mk 7:13)
Please, see for yourself the depth of God’s Love for us by sending Jesus alone - God incarnate, to be the propitiation for our sins, the “justifier of him that believes in Jesus” (Rom.3:25-26) Don’t let the enemy steal the truth from you. Things don’t need to have an upside down star or horns on it to be from Satan. He wants to keep as many people in the dark about God’s Truth and Love for us. Because God’s truth sets us free from the bondage of sin and death. His truth brings life to us. Satan knows it and hates it. Don’t let Satan steal what is rightfully yours: Belief in the man Jesus Christ, that you may inherit life and life abundantly. I challenge you to read 1 John. The epistle not the gospel (although the gospel of John ain’t too shabby either!) and see what God reveals to you by His Spirit. “O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in Him.” Psalm 34:8

By: arun

arun — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:52:54 +0000

its okay.bible says no one is came from the heaven except the son of god.as scripture says moses and eliah went to third sky.it mens ascended.and jesus also ascended.but it reveals first he went to paradise.in hebrews till now our father abraham waiting to enter in to heaven.till then no one can go to heaven.so in psalms and job says no one can praise god in paradise and they dont know who is jehovah.so
if mary assumption but she went to paradise coz she is good as the follower of jesus.remeber she cant hear our prayers and she cant reply for them too.so please read bible as it is.

By: Jacob Van Halteren

Jacob Van Halteren — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 01:35:26 +0000

Your comment that Mary is able to hear prayers and intercede on behalf of the prayer falls contrary to what God says in scripture. If, say at any one time, 5 or 10 million people world wide are asking her to pray on their behalf, she would have to be God to be able to hear them all and intercede for them all simultaneously. As God says in 1 Timothy 2:5. “For there is one GOD, and one Mediator between GOD and men, Himself man, Christ Jesus.”, that would mean what it says - that only Jesus Christ does this.

By: min-bee

min-bee — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:07:14 +0000

Your entry is very commendable–neither Catholics or Orthodox worship Mary, as you correctly observe. However, your statement that most Catholics believe Our Lady didn’t die is incorrect. The Church teaches that Our Lady died; Mary’s Dormition is not the same as her Assumption; “dormition” means that Mary “fell asleep in the Lord,” which is a term used in the New Testament for dying. “Assumption” indicates that she was “taken up” to heaven after death, so that she did not undergo physical corruption. Thank you and God bless you for looking so understandingly at Our Lady.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 06:31:58 +0000

History:

Now, this is what the Counsel of Ephesus in 431 declared (and I’m quoting from the Counsel): “If anyone does not confess that the Immanuel Christ in truth is God, and the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (theoticas), he is to be judged,” essentially, is what it says. Serious. Anybody who denied that she was the mother of God! Now, that’s a heavy statement, folks. She was the mother of the human Jesus, but it is not accurate to say she is the mother of God for that indicates that God was born.

Now, subsequent counsels repeated and refined this particular statement of Ephesus. Ott in his book, on page 197, says that “Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and she is to be honored as the wife of the Holy Spirit.” Now, again, you see this is pushing her into deistic identity. In fact, the Catholic church has made the Song of Solomon refer to Mary and the Holy Spirit.

There is no scripture for Mary worship. Pope Pius IX, in one of his—I think it was called “bull, Ineffabilus”—promulgated the following doctrine: “The most holy virgin Mary was preserved free from all stain of original sin.” So said Pope Pius IX, so it became divine revelation; she was sinless. Ott says that—he’s the Catholic theologian—“the doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary is not explicitly revealed in scripture.” But it is believed by the Catholic church because of the counsel. The Counsel of Trent said no justified person can, for his whole life, avoid all sins, except on the ground of special privilege from God such as the church holds was granted to the blessed virgin; she was born sinless and she stayed sinless.

Now this whole confusion goes back, really, to the amalgamation of the Babylonian cultism and the early Christian church. The founder of Babylon was Nimrod. Nimrod was an apostate of the patriarchal age. Remember reading about Nimrod in Genesis? He persuaded his followers he was to build a tower to heaven and thus began pagan worship. Nimrod was the grandson of Ham. He had a wife who was really bad news, her name was Simeramus I. With Nimrod and Simeramus I, there was a beginning of Babylonian idolatry. Simeramus became the mother of the cults. She became the famous mother whose name is different in different cultures; sometimes she’s Diana, sometimes she’s Ashtaroth—it just depends on where you are. Sometimes she’s Osiris, connected with Isis… Various different names as the Babylonian mystery cult spread.

When Babylon was finally destroyed, the high priest of Babylon with all of his cultism (that went back to Simeramus) fled to Rome, and Rome became the center of the Babylonian cults. Interestingly enough, it also became the center of the Roman church. The cult of Simeramus, the high priestess, was mixed with Christianity and gave birth to modern Mariolatry.

The interesting thing to note is that the worship of Mary today as the mother and the virgin is not really Christianity, but it is an acquiescence to Babylonian cultism. For Simeramus was impregnated by a sunbeam and gave virgin birth to a son. Her son is known in the Old Testament as Baal. The son was killed by a wild boar. For 40 days, he was dead—according to the legend—at the end of 40 days, he rose from the dead because his mother spent 40 days in mourning and fasting and therein is the basis of Lent! It isn’t scriptural; it’s Babylonian.

So, you see, the whole thing was mashed together in Rome. Incidentally, you can read about the Queen of Heaven—that’s the Catholic church term for Mary—you read about it in Jeremiah 44 and Ezekiel 8 and it’s talking there about Ashteroth and Simeramus, the high priestess of Babylonian cultism and it calls her the “Queen of Heaven.”

So, you can see where the problem came. So the worship of Mary is not scriptural; in fact, Mary had to be redeemed just like anybody else. She was a wonderful woman. Mostly they got this thing going because they took the statement from Elizabeth, you know, “Blessed art thou among women” and so forth and so on, and they made that the center of the whole Mariolatry.

By: Lulu

Lulu — Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:03:01 +0000

Thanks, Jessica!

By: jessica

jessica — Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:03:19 +0000

I recently discovered you and I am so glad I found you! I just posted a link to your recipe (and again the whole site) for stafyli gliko which I made yesterday. (I skipped the cloves and added crushed rose geranium leaves) Thank you so much for all the marvelous recipes. I love your website.

Jessica